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yack
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PostSubject: 4th Edition is here   Thu Aug 16, 2007 7:25 pm

Hello All.

The announcement of 4th Edition is a pretty big event for all RPG fans. It's a huge event for all of us at Wizards of the Coast, including WotC staff and our WizO support team. We understand that this is something many of you are going to feel very passionate about in a number of ways.

We've created this forum for few reasons. We want everyone to have a single discussion forum where they can get answers and information directly from the D&D staff. We also want to prevent the other forums from being overwhelmed with 4E posts to the point that it drowns out any of the natural discussion in those areas. Additionally, I want to have a single forum where our community can post their hopes, fears, concerns, and dreams about 4E. This will make it easier for the D&D staff to read community feedback, and to (hopefully) provide a lot of answers to your questions.

The WizOs will be moderating this forum and others. They are acting on the direction of Wizards of the Coast, so if you're upset with their moderation, please don't take it out on the WizOs. Their goals will be clear: Keep 4th Edition discussion in the 4E forum. This might mean locking threads and/or moving posts.

If you have concerns, questions, or issues about the forum moderation taking place after the 4th Edition announcement, I've created a thread here where you may discuss your concerns.

Finally, please try to be respectful in your posts and comments. Be nice to other posters, the WizOs, and WotC staff. The WizOs will be enforcing all Code of Conduct rules on all forums as usual.

If you have any suggestions or ideas on how I can do a better job of helping to facilitate communication between the D&D Staff and the Community, I've created a thread here.

Thanks!
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From InQuest:

"THE PLASTIC PERIPHERALS
So Fourth Edition will be a new rule set based on d20, but not remotely compatible. What’s that mean for the minis game? Effectively, this is D&D Minis 2.0 as well. Starting with Dungeons of Dread in April of 2008, D&D Minis sets will use Fourth Edition rules. According to Slavicsek, “All your plastic will still be usable, but your stat cards will need to be updated.” However, you’ll be able to get updated stat cards for free on Wizards’ website for Unhallowed and the sets printed since. In addition, there will be a sort of all-star set of updated cards available for download that will include updated stats for the figs getting the most tournament play. And of course, there’s always room for re-releasing popular figs in post-Fourth expansions of the future."


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PostSubject: Re: 4th Edition is here   Thu Aug 16, 2007 7:26 pm

I know I personally am not impressed. It was bad enough to get rid of Dungeon mag and make the new mag downloadable....but now the hobby itself. I'll be sticking to 3.5 thanks. And the talk of DDM 2.0 is not so cool either. As least we can be bitter family all together.
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PostSubject: Re: 4th Edition is here   Thu Aug 16, 2007 10:15 pm

I'm more willing to accept DDM 2.0 because of everything that's happened with the game already: clumsy rules, different rules for the same ability name, Kobolds that aren't Kobolds, Drow that aren't Drow, etc.

To be honest, given what WotC have (hopefully) learned from DDM, SWM, Dreamblade and the like I think that it's the "right time" for DDM to have a next generation.

But do we really need a D&D 4.0? Will the changes be worth rebuying hundreds of dollars of books? I've only got $150ish worth of books to rebuy with the [s]cash grab[/s] "upgrade" to 4.0 and I'm really doubting that it would be worth it for me. Even if my deepest desire (Lycanthrope splatbook!) were released for 4.0, I don't think I could justify replacing a perfectly good set of rules for a dubious upgrade.

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PostSubject: Re: 4th Edition is here   Thu Aug 16, 2007 11:15 pm

Just heard about this on a heroclix site of all places. Seriously sucks for people who have invested heavily into D&D minis and 3.5 books. Luckily I haven't yet or I would be seriously ticked off.
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PostSubject: Re: 4th Edition is here   Thu Aug 16, 2007 11:33 pm

I'm not heavily invested in 3.5 books (I have the Core three, Draconomicon, Weapons of Legacy and Miniatures Handbook), so I'm getting off light there.

Minis, on the other hand, are a different story. I've managed to get a glance at the new Troll design (looks more like the original Ettercap to me). I'm thoroughly unimpressed. A change in rules only would be better welcomed by me than a complete "oops, you gotta buy it all again Wink".

WotC knows that their customer base wants accurate representations...therefore they have no fear for the line if they keep ******* us in the wallet.

**** I'm getting all ****** off again!

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ZER0
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PostSubject: Re: 4th Edition is here   Thu Aug 16, 2007 11:36 pm

I like the new troll. A lot. It's not standard, but it's not the new beholder either Sad
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PostSubject: Re: 4th Edition is here   Fri Aug 17, 2007 12:47 am

New shyt for them to make money, I have enough 3rd and 3.5 edition books, I'm not buying anything from 4th edition, it's just some trick to make money on the back of the hardcore fans who are stupid enough to sell all their 3rd editions book to buy the new 4th edition books that will come out, only new fans and really stupid old fans will buy this crap

I will never buy books again if they do this, nor will I buy DDM, capitalism controls everything sadly and I'm against that kind of abuse
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Pinky Narfanek
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PostSubject: Re: 4th Edition is here   Fri Aug 17, 2007 1:05 am

Capitalism has its method of fighting back (by not purchasing said products) and corporations have fought our fighting back by the use of marketing to confuse "wants" with "needs" and even the most wary of us are sometimes swayed...probably more often than we realize.

The thing that really gets me is that there was no reason for the visuals to be upgraded/changed! Rules evolve over time, so even I understand that there is an eventual "need" for a D&D 4.0...but there was still plenty of room for development for 3.5. How many splatbooks are we missing? Lycanthropes, Elementals, Vermin, Yugoloths, Giants, what else? I know that there's plenty more and there were still new areas in established worlds that could have been explored.

The minis game was at a point where, like it or not, something had to be done. The rules were becoming more and more labyrinthine and you needed a pre-law specialization just to address some of the more common issues. I would have welcomed a revision to just the minis game. A new rulebook that overrode certain Special Abilities with consistent definitions and the elimination of others would have been excellent. But the revision that we're getting with FUBAR creature designs (Beholder, Troll, Green Dragon: you're all ugly and not in the good way.)

At least WotC is going to address a few of the newer sets and some of the older figures. That's actually a good move on their part and I give them (at least for now) credit for doing so. But that's only one positive in a sea of negatives.

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PostSubject: Re: 4th Edition is here   Fri Aug 17, 2007 2:41 am

Negative: we have to buy more books (already happened a bunch of times, it's the way of D&D).
Monsters changing appearence (happens every time there's an update)
Learning a new system (happens frequently, even without changes in editions. Tomb of Battle anyone? Very Happy)

Positive: New gaming system.
Re-vamped look.
More people joining due to whatever reason (it's always a good thing to be able to find a group. Some people shouldn't be gaming, but you can pick them out after a game Wink)
New source material (honestly, do you get upset every time a new complete comes out? No, you eat it up, haha.)

I'm with the new stuff. However, that's only until I can play it and see whether it's bad or not. Note, this is only my opinion, and it wasn't meant at all to be a dig against people who aren't with the new system. If you don't like it, that's your thing, and you have plenty of older editions to play with. I personally am at the standpoint of "hear-hear!" Very Happy
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PostSubject: Re: 4th Edition is here   Fri Aug 17, 2007 7:32 am

If I wanted to play Neverwinter Nights I would pop the cd in and play it. DnD is about sitting at a table and rolling dice, having beers, laughing not typing.If you don't have a gaming group get out from behind the computer and the basement and go out and meet people, people are really not that scary. (some sarcaism added). This should be called the Anti-Social Version.


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DarkFather
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PostSubject: Re: 4th Edition is here   Fri Aug 17, 2007 7:47 am

[sarcasm] Ooh, the new 4th Edition of D&D will be great for those of us who are too afraid to play D&D face to face, because we have anti-social problems.

That is what was said to me by someone I thought I liked (as a friend)...

Well my eldest son summed that above statement up in one easy joking situation...

Online DM: Okay. You find yourself in a dark room with an exit to the east. What would you like to do.
Online player: I'm scared of confrontation and the dark, so I cut myself.
Online DM: Congratulations. For taking the simplest (read streamlined) course of action, the PHB 4.0 says that you may advance a level. Due to the new rules, I as DM must make each advancement as fun and personal as possible. For your advancement, I give you this... have an upgraded weapon. A flick-Razor.

Welcome to the first ever session of online D&E 4.0*

D&E 4.0 = Dungeons & Emoes 4.0 Edition.

DF
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PostSubject: Re: 4th Edition is here   Fri Aug 17, 2007 7:54 am

Darkfather, I think you and your son may have coined the phrase that will haunt 4.0....Dungeons and Emoes...I would laugh more right now if it weren't so very close to the mark...
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PostSubject: Re: 4th Edition is here   Fri Aug 17, 2007 8:04 am

DarkFather wrote:

Well my eldest son summed that above statement up in one easy joking situation...

Online DM: Okay. You find yourself in a dark room with an exit to the east. What would you like to do.
Online player: I'm scared of confrontation and the dark, so I cut myself.
Online DM: Congratulations. For taking the simplest (read streamlined) course of action, the PHB 4.0 says that you may advance a level. Due to the new rules, I as DM must make each advancement as fun and personal as possible. For your advancement, I give you this... have an upgraded weapon. A flick-Razor.

Welcome to the first ever session of online D&E 4.0*

D&E 4.0 = Dungeons & Emoes 4.0 Edition.

DF

LOL...now that is funny DF!! Okay guys...i was away last night so could someone link me to the new figures and the new 4.0 information please :)
Based on what i have read so far...they are making DDM 2.0 non compatible with ddm????????? Please tell me i have misread that....i do recall a great game that was buried 6 feet under when the company did a "game system revamp".....anyone recall Mage Knight? Please dont tell me that ddm is heading that route Sad
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PostSubject: Re: 4th Edition is here   Fri Aug 17, 2007 1:22 pm

ZER0 wrote:
Negative: we have to buy more books (already happened a bunch of times, it's the way of D&D).
Monsters changing appearence (happens every time there's an update)
Learning a new system (happens frequently, even without changes in editions. Tomb of Battle anyone? Very Happy)

Positive: New gaming system.
Re-vamped look.
More people joining due to whatever reason (it's always a good thing to be able to find a group. Some people shouldn't be gaming, but you can pick them out after a game Wink)
New source material (honestly, do you get upset every time a new complete comes out? No, you eat it up, haha.)

I'm with the new stuff. However, that's only until I can play it and see whether it's bad or not. Note, this is only my opinion, and it wasn't meant at all to be a dig against people who aren't with the new system. If you don't like it, that's your thing, and you have plenty of older editions to play with. I personally am at the standpoint of "hear-hear!" Very Happy


There are no negative points, if you dont buy the books and start to play with them, negative points costing around 50-60$ each should be taken in consideration when calculating the + and - of something that doesn,t need to be improved
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ZER0
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PostSubject: Re: 4th Edition is here   Fri Aug 17, 2007 1:56 pm

Here's what I think on D&E. I think it's great. I can't find a serious group here, and I have to drive to roseville. I didn't grow up here, and don't have many friends here. With a son, I don't have a chance to sit around a game store waiting for someone to walk in so I can attack them by screaming "DO YOU PLAY D&D?! I need a game!" Yes, I do get to play a game sometimes. It's better in person. But it's ridiculously frustrating when you roll up a lvl 1 character and you get to use it once, then the group doesn't meet again. I like to DM, sometimes, but it feels like the only time I can get a game together with everyone's schedule being busy or not being horribly serious with D&D is rarely at best. Because you guys have groups it appears you're ridiculing a system that may actually help those of us who can't get a game together as frequently as you can and want to play online. I didn't jump on here and laugh at the message board or vassal playing D&Ders when I had a game. It's just bad form. You don't have to use the online utility to play D&D. So don't be bothered with it. "haha, some people can't get a game together! They must have poor social skills or not be willing to drive across the country to play with the friends they grew up with! They must not be willing to drive way out of their way and put a lot of effort into a game where the players are terrible when they could be playing with people they actually know but don't live close enough to play D&D with!" I'm looking at a move soon, and I may have better luck somewhere else, but this place is like a void as far as D&D goes (sacramento). The RPGA DM's half-retarded as well, and never officially put me down as RPGA the times I played, and I strongly hope he's not there this game day. There was my huge frustrated rant, considering I woke up way early this morning and now feel like crap.


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PostSubject: Re: 4th Edition is here   Fri Aug 17, 2007 2:03 pm

I'll use this opportunity now to apologize if what I said upset anybody. I'm not in the best mood, and I'm moving away soon, leaving my roommate (best roommate I've ever had, and my favorite D&D companion since my siblings when I was younger) behind Sad. This actually seems like a way we could stay connected. Regardless of how many miles I put between myself and her. I won't retract what I said, due to the fact that that's *roughly* how I feel. Too much of my own crap leaked into my post. I just know I'll lose momentum if I have to type it all over again.
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PostSubject: Re: 4th Edition is here   Fri Aug 17, 2007 9:28 pm

This Is ******.I Will Boycott 4.0 ALL The Way.I Hope The Miniatures Stay "Normal"....

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ZER0
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PostSubject: Re: 4th Edition is here   Fri Aug 17, 2007 10:03 pm

Ummmm, you may want to sit down for this... If you haven't read, minis v2.0
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PostSubject: Re: 4th Edition is here   Fri Aug 17, 2007 10:07 pm

If it's the way you feel, ZER0, it's the way you feel. You shouldn't have to apologize for that, especially since you've provided support for your statements rather than just going off the deep end.

We all go off the deep end sometimes. Some of us just stay there a bit longer than others. 👋

Part of what's going on is a natural resistance to change. Part of it is the blurring of the line between video gaming and RPGing...as long as I've been gaming, that's been a pretty solid distinction, and there's always the Role vs. Roll playing debate that will probably gather a good deal more steam after all this gets even bigger.

I don't remember what things were like when AD&D became D&D, I was "out" of the scene at the time (or involved in White Wolf games...I don't remember which), but I remember when AD&D 2nd Ed. was coming out. There were surveys and a good amount of "what's to come" in Dragon to let the current players in on the process. This is, IMO, the "right" way to make an edition switch. We were a part of it. It did not happen in the dark only to jump out at us.

This edition switch jumped out of the closet and started grinding against us and groping blindly about trying to distinguish our religeon...Not a good way to make an impression. Couple this with the changes in appearances (never mind the thousands of miniatures you've just bought, you're going to need to replace them all and before you get halfway through the stuff you want, we're going to switch editions on you again...why don't you just give us all your money and we'll see if we can't allow you a stipend on which to raise your kids and go about the rest of your life, if we feel generous?) and "holding" all of these cool "digital initiative" toys that could very easily have been included with 3.5 and make the current game better, and everything else (including continuous cranking out books that have barely been edited--because 4th ed. is coming and it'll all have to be replace and it's not cost effective enough to produce quality material with another edition on the way) and you're going to get some resentment on the part of the consumer. Nobody likes being thought of as an endless font of cash for someone else's benefit.

Trust me when I tell you that I know how hard it is to get a group together and how much it can mean to keep a good group going. But turning D&D into World of Warcraft doesn't do that...Giving a subset of society already notorious for its anti-social inclinations another excuse to not interact face-to-face is not good either.

I respect where you're coming from, but I'm still gonna disagree. :nono:

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PostSubject: Re: 4th Edition is here   Fri Aug 17, 2007 10:41 pm

Well, you can also chalk some of my vagueties up to lack of sleep and said hangover haha. My official standpoint on the matter is probably this:

I wish they would tell us something more than a few vague videos run with nobody else on whatever kind of server it will run on (and possibly lag, if not on a crazy good computer like they were more than likely running). I will go so far as to upgrade computers, due to the situation with my roommate and best friend for a good 6-7 years. It seems worth it, but I need to know now if I need to save up. I wish they'd let us know more of the functionality other than just "you can make a cool looking mini that's customizable" (though that is freaking cool looking right now). I wish they'd tell us more on how the game would run other than what they've said right now. But I'm looking forward to how they'll do fighters. That sounds like my cup of tea. Spearfighters doing better than Swordfigthers/Fencers, due to how combat runs now could be just what the doctor ordered as far as the multiple fighter problem. Highly efficient military like fighters going with the "you take the guy in the plate, you're better suited for him, I'll get the dodgy guy shooting the arrows" etc. sounds appealing. Moreso than "let's gang up on the wizard, that guy's a xxxxx!" Haha. I look forward to the new wizard option of regaining spells without sleep. That sounds fun. Mainly what I want to hear about is rogues. Those are a personal favorite of mine, and that's what Thiefling plays all the time. I really hope they give them a little overhaul, they seem so underpowered right now. Is facing going to be an issue again? Hell yes! Nothing's better than backstab! Very Happy Flanking makes sense, and I hope they keep that, but backstab's a classic, I miss that one a lot. But as far as the online option, it is just that, an option. I like the fact that there are now different options for people who want to run it a bit different, and that kicks the crap out of vassal. I'm going to subscribe myself and my roommate to make sure we can still get games together, even a solo. It's actually one of the most appealing options to me right now due to my current situation, and I dread the months of vassal games before this becomes an option. I got heartbroken when I was reading through red hand and thinking she wouldn't be able to play with me. I'm sure I could still run 3.5 on the new online mode, unless they re-vamp torch rules and such. I'll probably be able to run it better than at home. And the voice option is great. If you can search for other players, that solves all my problems, and I've got myself a group. It appears all the online is supposed to be is a digital minis representation, client to speak through, and dice-roller. It doesn't seem like it's supposed to have any rules built into it, which I really dig. Theoretically, you can get a 1st ed game together on this, and possibly search for other 1st ed'ers to join you. (aside from monster size, etc., which can be worked around...). All in all, I'm going to have to see more, but what my official standpoint is probably going to stand at is: if things keep going the way they're going as far as my personal tastes, and what I'd like to see happen, I will purchase probably 2 of every book and pay for 2 subscriptions (she's going to play with me, dammit! Haha)
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PostSubject: Re: 4th Edition is here   Sat Aug 18, 2007 11:43 pm

But, if things were transparent, then people wouldn't be getting all upset over nothing!

Could we really have that? Could we really reasonably expect a company to say "We're getting rid of a product, but here's what's coming to replace it: you'll need these items to take full advantage of what is to come, but you can still get more than enough enjoyment out of our product in the traditional ways, the extras will just fill that out a bit"?

I'm sorry, but your plan makes too much sense and treats the consumer as an intelligent, rational person instead of a wallet with legs and lungs. I'm going to have to veto it.

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